Episode 3: Cruising Out Of Sight
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ANNOUNCER: Around Australia on the AusEtherial network, and across the world online, This is Supernatural Sexuality, with Doctor Seabrooke!
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SEABROOKE: Hello everyone, welcome back to Supernatural Sexuality! I’m your host, Dr Olivia Seabrooke, Join me tonight as I take calls from listeners like you, who have questions about their relationships or sexualities.
As always, if you need to talk, or if you’d like some advice, you can call us around Australia for free on 1800 975 711, or internationally via our Geistline service, at SeabrookeOnAir.
It’s been very, very cold in Melbourne this week, so I hope you’re snuggled under the covers tonight with someone special to you, keeping yourself warm and bundled up, unless you’re a cold-lover, in which case I hope you’re making the most of the cold weather! Whether you’re cuddled up for warmth, or stretched out in the cold, I’m ready to start taking your calls!
Now um- Shannon tells me this next caller has been very...well, insistent is a good word for it, let's see how we can help.
THEO: [sighs] Hello?? Can you hear me? Am I on?
SEABROOKE: Yes, you’re on the air. Welcome to the show, I’m Dr Seabrooke--
THEO: Yeah, yeah, I know you, that’s, that's why I’m calling.
SEABROOKE: Yes, but I, and the listeners don’t know you.
THEO: Oh... Right, sorry. My name’s Theo.
SEABROOKE: Pleasure to meet you Theo! What did you want to talk to me about?
THEO: [long huffy sigh] I don’t-I don't think my fiance wants to keep me.
SEABROOKE: To... keep you? As in, like a kink domme/sub situation? Or--
THEO: [Interrupting] No! No not like that!
SEABROOKE: Okay then, well in what way?
THEO: [sighs] Well, previously, Ollie had followed all the rules. [more smitten as line continues] He called me by crying 7 tears into the ocean in the moonlight... [back to anxious] So I came to land, and shed my pelt, and-
SEABROOKE: Oh, you’re a selkie, right?
THEO: Yeah.
SEABROOKE: Did Ollie take your pelt...?
THEO: No! No- he won’t take my pelt... That’s the problem! I don’t know what I’m doing wrong.
SEABROOKE: Hey. It’s okay Theo. Just breathe.
THEO: [deep breaths] I don’t know why he doesn’t want it. He says he loves me.
SEABROOKE: That’s a big statement there Theo. Do you think Ollie is lying when he says that he loves you?
THEO: No. Never.
SEABROOKE: But you feel that if he doesn’t want to take your pelt, it must mean he doesn’t love you.
THEO: Yeah.
SEABROOKE: Okay. Theo, doesn’t your pelt mean you can go back into the ocean and see other selkies?
THEO: Look, I know what you’re going to say. You’re gonna say something like ‘I shouldn’t want to be isolated from the sea’ and ‘this isn’t what selkies want’ but that’s not what this means!
SEABROOKE: What does it mean to you?
THEO: That he’s serious about us! That he’s following my people's traditions!
SEABROOKE: Hmm. Have you asked him what this means to him?
THEO: No.
SEABROOKE: Is Ollie home now? Could you get him on the phone as well?
THEO: He is, but- why do you want to talk to him?
SEABROOKE: I think it might be worth finding out what your pelt means to him as well.
[SFX: There’s the sound of the phone being shuffled between two people]
OLLIE: Hello?
SEABROOKE: Hello there, am I speaking with Ollie?
OLLIE: Uhh, yeah- you’re on speaker phone right now, Theo’s still here.
SEABROOKE: Great. Ollie, do you understand who I am and what I do?
OLLIE: Yeah, we listen to your show most nights.
THEO: Don’t tell her that!
SEABROOKE: I’m flattered. Ollie, I’ll launch right into it then, what does Theo’s pelt mean to you?
OLLIE: Uhh, what-what do you mean by that?
SEABROOKE: Theo has been talking to me about you not wanting to take his pelt, is that right?
OLLIE: Yes.
SEABROOKE: Why is that?
OLLIE: It’s not mine to take.
THEO: [Interrupting] Yes it is! I offered it to you!
OLLIE: No it’s not, you can’t offer something like that! It’s like- offering your leg, or a kidney-
SEABROOKE: Okay, let me just stop you there-
THEO: [Interrupting] Humans do that! What if you needed a kidney transplant?
OLLIE: Yeah, but I don’t NEED your pelt-
SEABROOKE: Ollie! Theo! I think I know what’s going on here.
THEO: Is it that Ollie doesn’t want me?
OLLIE: I’m right here!
THEO: Fine. Is it that you don’t want me? [heavy huff]
SEABROOKE: No. It’s not that at all. Ollie, you believe that taking Theo’s pelt is akin to taking a body part from him, right?
OLLIE: Yes.
SEABROOKE: AND, Theo, you believe that by Ollie not taking your pelt, he’s not adhering to selkie traditions, which are important to you, right?
THEO: Right!
SEABROOKE: Okay. I think I understand. Ollie, Theo is trying to show you in his terms his commitment to you. In his family, giving over his pelt means that you two will be together forever. Theo feels you’re rejecting him when you reject this.
THEO: [quietly] cause he IS rejecting me.
SEABROOKE: BUT, Theo, Ollie doesn’t want to take your freedom from you. I’m willing to bet he loves you so much that your freedom and happiness is paramount to him, especially since your pelt DOES hold that kind of power. Is that true Ollie?
OLLIE: Absolutely.
SEABROOKE: And you don’t want that kind of power imbalance in your relationship.
OLLIE: No. Never. Th-Theo- I want you to want to stay with me, not that you HAVE to stay with me. I don’t - I don't want that to be something that could be held over your head. It feels controlling. And wrong.
THEO: But- It doesn’t feel wrong to me. It feels like you’re rejecting my traditions.
SEABROOKE: Can I interject with a suggestion here?
THEO: Yeah, go ahead.
SEABROOKE: Theo, you mentioned earlier that you and Ollie are engaged?
THEO: We are!
SEABROOKE: Ollie, would I be right in assuming this is your human way of communicating a similar thing to Theo’s pelt?
OLLIE: ...I guess it is.
THEO: Oh.
SEABROOKE: It would seem that you two are already making this commitment. Can I suggest that Ollie- you take Theo’s pelt, but you don’t lock it up. You’re giving him a part of you in marriage, let him give you part of him as well.
OLLIE: But-
SEABROOKE: He can access it anytime, but you ARE dating a selkie. It’s only fair if you embrace some of Theo’s traditions too.
OLLIE: [breathes in] I-You’re right. You're right.
SEABROOKE: But it might also be worth talking with Theo’s family, and maybe the two of you could work out new selkie traditions that would feel good for the both of you, in the same way the engagement does. Would that work for you too Theo?
THEO: Yeah. Yeah that-that sounds... really good.
OLLIE: And I’d love to explore new fusions with you.
THEO: Grandma does love writing selkie stories. She could probably help in this situation.
SEABROOKE: And this way the two of you can embrace both of your heritages, together.
OLLIE: We’re already planning the wedding on the beachside so Theo’s family can attend- maybe they can help out with the ceremony?
THEO: My brother would love that.
SEABROOKE: Sounds like the two of you have some planning to do then! Are you both good from here?
THEO: That’s all, from me at least. Thank you.
OLLIE: Really, Thank you for this. Is there somewhere we can send a wedding invite?
SEABROOKE: [laughs] If you stay on the line afterwards, Shannon will put you through to the station address. Goodnight to the both of you.
OLLIE: Goodnight!
THEO: Night, thanks again.
SEABROOKE: It can be such a hard thing, when two different cultures come together, with such different ways of thinking. I see this so often in my practice, and honestly, communication is key. I don’t believe there’s any cultures that are so different that they can’t be bridged, if we’re willing to listen to each other, and find something we can all agree on.
It looks like our next caller is ready, you’re on the air, go ahead.
QUINN: Uhh- so my name is Quinn, I’m not sure if this really counts as something to call about, because it’s not a problem I’ve got exactly, I just wanted to talk to someone about something that I think about a lot. Is that okay?
SEABROOKE: Why don’t you tell me a little about yourself and what’s bothering you, and I’ll see what I can do.
QUINN: Well uhh, I turned eighteen two months ago. That’s when people in my coven come of age, and, well, we’re shapeshifting magicians, right? When I was growing up I was encouraged to try on different identities, so I could choose what felt best for me, you know?
SEABROOKE: I think that’s a very wise form of self-discovery for any young person to take.
QUINN: But now I’m supposed to choose, and I-I wanna be able to date other adults, and I don’t feel comfortable doing that until I pick out who I am, but I just don’t have an answer.
SEABROOKE: Supposed to choose in what sense in particular? Your default physical form?
QUINN: [laughs] No, we don’t care about that, people change how they look all the time. [back to serious] But, I don’t know... I-I feel like the way the world is right now, I’m supposed to choose a gender and a sexuality and-and stick with those as who I am, you know? So I know where I fit, and other people know where I fit, and everything. But I don’t know! It feels as easy to shift between those things as it does changing the colour of my lips or my hair! I don’t know who I am.
SEABROOKE: First of all, I want you to know that anything that’s making you this anxious absolutely counts as a problem, and I’m very glad that you called me. As far as knowing who you are goes, your coven may mark eighteen as the age of adulthood, but that doesn’t mean everyone expects some invisible switch to flip and for you to know the answers to everything. Self-awareness is a lifelong process.
And mutability can be an identity in itself. Not everyone will always understand, but if you feel like the most authentic expression of who you are is someone whose sexuality and gender are variable, then embrace that as who you are! Nothing about who we are is ever permanent, and we shouldn’t be afraid of where our journey takes us in exploring who we can be.
QUINN: But how do I date other people like this?
SEABROOKE: Be as honest as you can be. I promise you, even the people your age who seem to have everything worked out are just as new to this as you are. Everyone’s trying their best to find happiness and connection, and those things are far easier to find when you accept yourself first. I’m certain you’re not the first person in your community to go through this kind of self-doubt; ask around and see if there’s anyone who can offer guidance. You shouldn’t have to compromise or ‘pick’ anything that isn’t your truth.
QUINN: [deep sigh] I’m really glad I called.
SEABROOKE: I am too. I hope everything works out for you, and congratulations on your coming of age.
There are so many people out there, feeling like they don’t know who they are yet, although not always like this! Remember that it’s alright to take another person on your journey, as long as you’re communicating and being honest with yourself and your chosen partner or partners while you find out together. And even if the journey never ends, if there’s never a destination? That’s fine too, as long as you keep that clear.
This is Supernatural Sexuality, we’ll be back after these messages.
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SEABROOKE: Welcome back to Supernatural Sexuality, I’m Doctor Seabrooke, I think we’re ready for some calls!
Shannon tells me our next caller is on the line, you’re on the air, go ahead.
[BACKGROUND SFX: Outside ambience, wind noises]
SENAN: Hello Dr Seabrooke! It’s Senan here. My first time calling.
SEABROOKE: Welcome, Senan.
SENAN: I heard your show the other week. I really related to... Ramona, having visibility issues as well.
SEABROOKE: It sounds like you’re outside?
SENAN: I am! I hope that’s ok.
SEABROOKE: Of course. There’s no problems hearing you.
SENAN: I was thinking about all this stuff and I like to walk when I think.
SEABROOKE: We have that in common.
SENAN: [laughs] I have to admit I also use that as a... a euphemism.
SEABROOKE: For?
SENAN: Cruising. Oh, do you know what that is?
SEABROOKE: Do you mean flirting for hookups, or beat play?
SENAN: [laughs] So you do know.
SEABROOKE: I’ve taken a summer walk or two through Tiergarten at dusk...
SENAN: [wistfully] Oh, Berlin...
SEABROOKE: I also have friends who are regulars at Lab.Oratory.
SENAN: I’ll never look at tupperware the same way again.
[Dr Seabrooke laughs.]
SEABROOKE: So, I’m assuming we’re talking about beats, but let’s keep any discussion to legal spaces.
SENAN: Oh, no problem... It's just I was cruising and I met Nathan. Super cool guy. He’s an exhibitionist. I’m a voyeur.
SEABROOKE: Sounds good so far.
SENAN: It is. He’s not an emotional Neanderthal, and he can communicate. He’s a fucking unicorn.
SEABROOKE: [laughs] Good to hear, but what’s the problem?
SENAN: He got me to watch him fuck someone the other night and it made me a little uncomfortable.
SEABROOKE: Jealousy?
SENAN: No, no... The other guy didn’t know I was there because I was- invisible.
SEABROOKE: Ah. Just to clarify, can you control your visibility?
SENAN: Yes. I know what you’re going to say...
SEABROOKE: ... and it needs saying regardless. There’s a real problem with consent there.
SENAN: Right?! I thought so too, but Nathan said the other guy was an exhibitionist, so wouldn’t care.
SEABROOKE: So, you were in a cruising environment.
SENAN: Yes.
SEABROOKE: Your partner initiated sex with someone else... I’m assuming he did this without talking.
SENAN: Yep.
SEABROOKE: So, the other person was never really given an opportunity to express they were comfortable with you watching.
SENAN: No. They weren’t.
SEABROOKE: They should have been told, Senan.
SENAN: I...
SEABROOKE: And I know you know that, but knowing and doing can be two different things.
SENAN: You’re right.
[SFX: Outside ambient noise fills the silence.]
SEABROOKE: So, if you weren’t jealous, then what was the problem from your perspective?
SENAN: Right, well... yesterday Nathan was jerking off in my lounge room, but didn’t know I was home and then when I let him know that I was home he was angry... that I’d been watching him.
SEABROOKE: Did you talk about it?
SENAN: Yeah. It ended up being a great conversation, but I still don’t get why I copped it so hard. He apologised for snapping at me, but I think he still resents me a bit.
SEABROOKE: Ok, I don’t want to speak on Nathan’s behalf, but let's talk a little about being an exhibitionist.
SENAN: I didn’t think it was that complicated.
SEABROOKE: Everyone is different, Senan.
SENAN: I know.
SEABROOKE: But exhibitionism kind of comes in two flavours, if you will.
SENAN: Tasty!
SEABROOKE: [laughs] Stay with me, Senan!
SENAN: Sorry.
SEABROOKE: The show-offs want to be seen. They’re there for the audience.
SENAN: Ok.
SEABROOKE: And then there’s the taboo- breakers. They’re there to feel like they’re breaking the rules.
SENAN: Right, so they don’t need someone to see them. They just know.
SEABROOKE: Yes.
SENAN: So Nathan is the show-off type.
SEABROOKE: It sounds like he is.
SENAN: Ohh, so he needs to be seen.
SEABROOKE: He needs to see that he is being seen.
SENAN: Right.
SEABROOKE: But more importantly, he needs to agree to being seen.
SENAN: Right. Of course.
SEABROOKE: And remember sometimes he won’t want to be seen.
SENAN: So I should check in each time.
SEABROOKE: Exactly.
[SFX: Outside ambient noise fills silence.]
SENAN: Do I do that when we’re cruising as well?
SEABROOKE: What have you done up until now?
SENAN: Well just a lot of dirty chat to be honest.
SEABROOKE: What about after?
SENAN: What do you mean?
SEABROOKE: What happens if something goes wrong?
SENAN: Nothing has.
SEABROOKE: So far.
SENAN: So far.
SEABROOKE: I’d suggest to keep it that way, you should have a chat beforehand. Not just before, but during the day, while you’re sober and not tired.
SENAN: Okay.
SEABROOKE: Then sort out some guidelines. These are just ideas you both mutually agree to that can guide you both in unexpected situations.
SENAN: Like he’s allowed to fuck who he likes?
SEABROOKE: And that you’re allowed to watch, but then it’s also important to set firm boundaries. Talk about what each of your limits are. Use examples.
SENAN: From the past?
SEABROOKE: You can do. Clearly he’s more private about masturbating. Maybe ask him why.
SENAN: And I want to stay visible while I’m cruising, even if he doesn’t want me to.
SEABROOKE: Then I’d put that down as a firm rule.
SENAN: I like the idea of talking about this during the day. Usually it's after a few pints and we’re horny.
SEABROOKE: It can feel a bit more awkward at first, but then you normalise it, and the conversation can change as your tastes do.
SENAN: So talk about fucking over a cup of tea, with some Tim Tams.
SEABROOKE: It’s not a bad way for a couple to spend some of their afternoon together.
SENAN: I can’t do that with the other people cruising though.
SEABROOKE: Technically you could, but much more difficult to organise.
SENAN: [laughs] I guess.
SEABROOKE: You can make certain assumptions based on the situation. There is a certain implied consent to those sorts of spaces.
SENAN: The whole not-talking thing.
SEABROOKE: People do take advantage of that, but I’d say a good rule of thumb is that as the experience becomes more intense, then the consent needs to be more explicit.
SENAN: So just ask if they’re okay?
SEABROOKE: Absolutely. It’s also fine to wrap that in dirty talk, as long as you’re listening to the answers as well.
SENAN: I’d be worried guys would feel the need to go along with the dirty talk.
SEABROOKE: You can meet them halfway. “Do you like that?” is a good question to ask because then they can make the answer dirty or not.
SENAN: Good point. Whatever keeps the information flowing, I guess.
SEABROOKE: And if they don’t respond, then you might need to insist on the check- in.
SENAN: I usually check in with them afterwards as well.
SEABROOKE: That’s great.
SENAN: Yeah I ended up walking a guy back to his car and sitting with him for half an hour one night a little while ago. I found him at the end of some intense looking group play. It was his first time.
SEABROOKE: Sounds like he needed a cup of tea.
SENAN: [laughs] I offered.
SEABROOKE: That was a lovely thing to do.
[SFX: Outside ambient noise fills the silence.]
SENAN: Thanks, Dr Seabrooke.
SEABROOKE: No problem, but I do think that’s a good place to leave it.
SENAN: [grateful] You’ve been a great help. Looking forward to seeing Nathan tomorrow.
SEABROOKE: Good to hear it. Take care, Senan.
Wow, that was a long one, I’m actually really glad Senan called in. Consent is so important, and this is not just something that our cruising listeners should think about - Consent shouldn’t just be about the first time, it’s something that should always be a part of your relationship. Remember to check in, if you haven’t recently.
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SEABROOKE: That brings us to the end of our show tonight, I’d like to thank Theo and Olly, Quinn, and Senan for calling in tonight, and thanks to Shannon Forth, our producer.
I’m Dr. Olivia Seabrooke, this has been Supernatural Sexuality. I hope you’ve found something in our show tonight, and I hope your relationships find their way. I’ll see you next week.
ANNOUNCER: Supernatural Sexuality with Doctor Seabrooke was created by Lee Davis-Thalbourne and produced by Passer Vulpes Productions.
Doctor Olivia Seabrooke is voiced by Mama Boho.
Theo was voiced by Ian Irving and Olly was voiced by Isaiah Johnson, with the call written by Sav Emmett Wolfe.
Quinn was voiced by Georgia Mckenzie, with the call written by Mary Borsellino.
Senan was voiced by Jarred Worley, with the call written by Alexander Swords.
The Voice of the AusEtherial Network is Lee Davis-Thalbourne.
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Up next on the AusEtherial Network, find out what the heroes talk about between the great adventures, on Inn Between! Find out more about this great show at thegoblinshead.com!
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